Comments on: Is the writing on the wall for the OS Grid Reference? http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference A weblog. A website. A geospatial miscellany... Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:31:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Jonathan http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-286 Jonathan Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:16:23 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-286 "...resented the possibility of non-commercial re-users obtaining free access"? And what did the report say to that? The only reasonable response I can think of is "tough s**t!" In any case, the flip side of the objection to other people getting stuff for free is that you can too. Unvarnished jealousy seems to be a rather odd reason not to fulfil a public service. “…resented the possibility of non-commercial re-users obtaining free access”?

And what did the report say to that? The only reasonable response I can think of is “tough s**t!”

In any case, the flip side of the objection to other people getting stuff for free is that you can too. Unvarnished jealousy seems to be a rather odd reason not to fulfil a public service.

]]> By: Rob http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-281 Rob Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:21:51 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-281 Thanks for the comments, nothing like some bold statements and speculation to generate a bit of interest. As for the question, “How did OS mapping data end up in Multimap, and their API?” Shed loads of cash? Perhaps the answer lies in ‘The Power of Information’ report by Steinberg and Mayo, which recommended to government the OS release a web mapping API [OpenSpace], note paragraph 67... “Interviews with OS suggested that the major barrier to launching the application [OpenSpace – an OS mapping API] came from its relationships with smaller suppliers, who resented the possibility of non-commercial re-users obtaining free access to information that they had had to pay for as part of their commercial arrangements” Thanks for the comments, nothing like some bold statements and speculation to generate a bit of interest.

As for the question, “How did OS mapping data end up in Multimap, and their API?” Shed loads of cash? Perhaps the answer lies in ‘The Power of Information’ report by Steinberg and Mayo, which recommended to government the OS release a web mapping API [OpenSpace], note paragraph 67…

“Interviews with OS suggested that the major barrier to launching the application [OpenSpace – an OS mapping API] came from its relationships with smaller suppliers, who resented the possibility of non-commercial re-users obtaining free access to information that they had had to pay for as part of their commercial arrangements”

]]> By: bruce http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-278 bruce Wed, 03 Oct 2007 00:18:33 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-278 OK, In turn: MAPPERZ, take care. Lat-Long is a grid-system, NOT a projection. Lat-Long can have multiple projections, and each projection multiple datums. Beyond that I'm no expert. That also explains why to lat-long locations can have different points on the map. JONATHAN: I'm not necessarily admonishing its use (in fact I think we have little choice because it is (a) the de facto system of google and etc. (b) international, but it does present problems for those working happily within the OSgrid world which we have been used to in the UK. I think the (a), (b) and (c) you pull out of my post are pretty good reasons to be worried. Very few people properly understand geodesy, grid systems, projections and etc. well enough to use them properly and I fear many systems are being designed incorporating genuine mistakes. I did a poor job myself earlier in the summer when I implemented the basic maths for the conversion as a PL/SQL function, but forgot the datum shift. Hence errors which should have been 1-5m became 80-150m. Re WIKIPEDIA: that would take a long time and another post to explain in full, but in short I am not a fan of a so-called factual encyclopedia which is written by amateurs, has not proper editorial control (consensus can often be wrong), changes day-by-day (or minute by minute), has untrained contributor who regularly plagiarise. It is certainly NOT a way to arrive at a definitive place name gazetteer. For more details, see: http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/~bruce/wikipedia.ppt Agree over OS. OK, In turn:

MAPPERZ, take care. Lat-Long is a grid-system, NOT a projection. Lat-Long can have multiple projections, and each projection multiple datums. Beyond that I’m no expert.

That also explains why to lat-long locations can have different points on the map.

JONATHAN: I’m not necessarily admonishing its use (in fact I think we have little choice because it is (a) the de facto system of google and etc. (b) international, but it does present problems for those working happily within the OSgrid world which we have been used to in the UK. I think the (a), (b) and (c) you pull out of my post are pretty good reasons to be worried. Very few people properly understand geodesy, grid systems, projections and etc. well enough to use them properly and I fear many systems are being designed incorporating genuine mistakes. I did a poor job myself earlier in the summer when I implemented the basic maths for the conversion as a PL/SQL function, but forgot the datum shift. Hence errors which should have been 1-5m became 80-150m.

Re WIKIPEDIA: that would take a long time and another post to explain in full, but in short I am not a fan of a so-called factual encyclopedia which is written by amateurs, has not proper editorial control (consensus can often be wrong), changes day-by-day (or minute by minute), has untrained contributor who regularly plagiarise. It is certainly NOT a way to arrive at a definitive place name gazetteer.

For more details, see: http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/~bruce/wikipedia.ppt

Agree over OS.

]]> By: Jonathan http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-276 Jonathan Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:24:33 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-276 Nice CAPTCHA by the way - makes a pleasant change from the usual nagging. Nice CAPTCHA by the way – makes a pleasant change from the usual nagging.

]]> By: Jonathan http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-273 Jonathan Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:22:56 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-273 Can you explain "the implications" of moving to lat-long? All you seem to be saying when you admonish its use is that a) it's too precise, b) it doesn't convert from eastings/northings very well and c) two identical grid refs can refer t the same points (really? I'll take your word for it). But what relevance does any of that have to the users of Multimap? And why the Wikipedia swipe? PS: To answer your question about whether MM had "special permission from the OS to use their data" - I'm willing to bet that this took the form of a shedload of cash, no doubt somewhat spiced by the knowledge that if OS didn't allow it, it's competitors would (the notion of "competitors" here being a little perverse seeing as OS benefit from a large slice of tax-payers money, but I'll let that pass...) Can you explain “the implications” of moving to lat-long? All you seem to be saying when you admonish its use is that a) it’s too precise, b) it doesn’t convert from eastings/northings very well and c) two identical grid refs can refer t the same points (really? I’ll take your word for it).

But what relevance does any of that have to the users of Multimap? And why the Wikipedia swipe?

PS: To answer your question about whether MM had “special permission from the OS to use their data” – I’m willing to bet that this took the form of a shedload of cash, no doubt somewhat spiced by the knowledge that if OS didn’t allow it, it’s competitors would (the notion of “competitors” here being a little perverse seeing as OS benefit from a large slice of tax-payers money, but I’ll let that pass…)

]]> By: Chris Hanson http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-272 Chris Hanson Tue, 02 Oct 2007 16:44:13 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-272 >unlike eastings and northings, two numerically identical lat-long positions don’t necessarily refer to the same point. Are you referring to differing datums? Because really, any northing/easting system can suffer datum misidentification just the same as lat/lon. It happens that OSGB does define a standard datum, but so does most every national mapping standard, whether it be grid based or lat/lon. Outside of a datum issue, I am not aware of any situation where "numerically identical lat-long positions" refer to a different point. Could you give an example? BTW, I still remember your Domesday book of DEM data sources from the Dark Ages. :) >unlike eastings and northings, two numerically identical lat-long positions don’t necessarily refer to the same point.

Are you referring to differing datums? Because really, any northing/easting system can suffer datum misidentification just the same as lat/lon. It happens that OSGB does define a standard datum, but so does most every national mapping standard, whether it be grid based or lat/lon. Outside of a datum issue, I am not aware of any situation where “numerically identical lat-long positions” refer to a different point. Could you give an example?

BTW, I still remember your Domesday book of DEM data sources from the Dark Ages. :)

]]> By: Richard Keen http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-270 Richard Keen Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:33:37 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-270 Glad you're enjoying the slippy OS maps on multimap.com and through our Open API. You can use OS Grid References (and eastings and northings) as search terms on multimap.com via the address search box, and through the 'qs' (quick search) parameter of our API. For example here's a search for OS Grid Ref NN166712 (the &dp=841 part gets you OS map data): http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|NN166712&dp=841 Eastings and northings can be specified using the form osgb:easting,northing: http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|osng:254343,123433&dp=841 We also support mercator co-ordinates in the form mercator:x,y and latitude longitude as lat,lon in the same search field. We're currently working on a much improved linking (query string parameter) specification for the site (and accompanying documentation), which we hope will expose this functionality far more explicitly. In addition, if you scroll down below the map on UK maps at appropriate zoom factors, you'll see the OS Grid Reference of the centre of the map is displayed. Hope this is of interest. Richard Keen multimap.com Glad you’re enjoying the slippy OS maps on multimap.com and through our Open API.

You can use OS Grid References (and eastings and northings) as search terms on multimap.com via the address search box, and through the ‘qs’ (quick search) parameter of our API. For example here’s a search for OS Grid Ref NN166712 (the &dp=841 part gets you OS map data):

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|NN166712&dp=841

Eastings and northings can be specified using the form osgb:easting,northing:

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|osng:254343,123433&dp=841

We also support mercator co-ordinates in the form mercator:x,y and latitude longitude as lat,lon in the same search field.

We’re currently working on a much improved linking (query string parameter) specification for the site (and accompanying documentation), which we hope will expose this functionality far more explicitly.

In addition, if you scroll down below the map on UK maps at appropriate zoom factors, you’ll see the OS Grid Reference of the centre of the map is displayed.

Hope this is of interest.

Richard Keen
multimap.com

]]> By: Rob http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-269 Rob Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:10:01 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-269 I had a look at the OpenAPI at the weekend...awesome. I had a look at the OpenAPI at the weekend…awesome.

]]> By: Mapperz http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference/comment-page-1#comment-266 Mapperz Tue, 02 Oct 2007 08:39:02 +0000 http://gisconsultancy.com/blog/geoweb/is-the-writing-on-the-wall-for-the-os-grid-reference#comment-266 Multimap moved to latitude and longitude a little while ago, this was done so that all their data was in one map projection. They had two separate versions before converting OS grid data to lat/lng. It's a good move and with the Open API you can see the benifits As to demise of the OS Grid. No chance OS will only map the UK. Here is a good link using OS 50K data using the Open API (Full Screen OS 50k - in lat/lng but Barry has add OS Grid tile conversion script) http://www.bdcc.co.uk/XMarksTheSpot.htm?t=Swildons&g=ST53125131 Open API http://www.multimap.com/openapi/ Mapperz http://mapperz.blogspot.com/ Multimap moved to latitude and longitude a little while ago, this was done so that all their data was in one map projection. They had two separate versions before converting OS grid data to lat/lng.
It’s a good move and with the Open API you can see the benifits
As to demise of the OS Grid. No chance OS will only map the UK.

Here is a good link using OS 50K data using the Open API
(Full Screen OS 50k – in lat/lng but Barry has add OS Grid tile conversion script)
http://www.bdcc.co.uk/XMarksTheSpot.htm?t=Swildons&g=ST53125131

Open API
http://www.multimap.com/openapi/

Mapperz
http://mapperz.blogspot.com/

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